Episode 2: Building recovery networks in Daviess County

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Denny Spinner

This is Denny Spinner from the Indiana University Center for Rural Engagement. Welcome to Our Indiana: Stories from Rural Hoosiers, recording today from REAL Recovery in Washington, IN. we are here with Jimmy Hay, the President of REAL Recovery, and Dr. Priscilla Barnes, an associate professor at the IU School of Public Health in Bloomington. Jimmy, Priscilla, welcome and thanks for being here today.

Priscilla Barnes

Thank you so much for having us.

Jimmy Hay

Thank you.

Denny Spinner

The story here is quite a story. I've been here before in this room for a great celebration last year, but there's a lot to celebrate about what has happened here in Washington. So Jimmy, since you're the local, the native here of Daviess County, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you became involved with this center here in Washington.

Jimmy Hay

Certainly, I'd have to start off with I'm born and raised here in in Washington. I had substance use disorder for 30 years. And I am now 10 years clean this year. I got involved because of the process that I went through to obtain sobriety. I found out that that we needed more leadership in, in recovery. So it started with the Celebrate Recovery meeting here on Saturday night, with the community corrections clients and so I was asked to step in as a leader and so I kind of just took my experience through AA, NA and the Life Recovery Bible and mixed those together and we worked through a 12-step program together. So 12 of us worked all 12 steps together, which caused a bond and then we decided after that we wanted to do, we wanted to become a grassroots organization was that went out and tried to help other people to obtain long term recovery.

Denny Spinner

And a little bit of background that you mentioned this organization, it's the it's called DARAC (day-rack) here locally is what we call it, but it's the Daviesss Advances Recovery Access Consortium. Long, lot of letters, but a very effective organization and Priscilla, I guess you you're from IU, you came to Daviesss County. What brought you here and how did you get involved?

Priscilla Barnes

Yeah. Well, I always like to start off telling my story that, “hi, I'm Priscilla, and I'm a pracademic.” So by the background, I'm a health educator. I was a practitioner in many different spaces. And there became a point where I was thinking there has to be a science for how communities, especially around public health issues, come together to solve complex problems. And so what led me to academia, the academic part of me is I really wanted to be in a space that celebrates community engagement. And to work alongside of communities to come up with solutions that they already know, they just need the assistance, the resources that a university provides to live out with some of the ideals, the programs organizations that they already know they need for their community. Thanks to the Center for Rural Engagement, in 2018, I was able to begin working with Daviess through a project called Community Health Improvement Plans and it was, I call it my making friends initiative. Let me just go out beyond the Sample Gates of IU and go meet some cool people, just learn from them, listen to what they're saying are emerging concerns. And one of the big things I kept hearing was we need to do something related to substance use, mental health, but most importantly we need stronger supports for our recovery communities. Long story short, fast forward as I was here, I kept hearing Jimmy's name. Jimmy was already working here as part of REAL recovery. What was really fascinating about what Jimmy was doing here locally was exactly what he said. There's these dedicated folks living in recovery that wanted to go beyond the 12 steps. And as a person who looks to community, who have the solutions to how they want to address local issues, I wanted to work with Jimmy and his organization. So we teamed up. Is that right, Jimmy? Hopefully I, I hope I haven't scared him away yet. Academics can be kind of funny and scary. But we teamed up on a Health Resources Service Administration, grant, HRSA, and we, Jimmy and I had a lot of conversations, what do your organizations need to continue to grow and thrive into what you want Daviess to be for folks living in recovery. So Jimmy and I were the dynamic duo when it comes to trying to figure out from the standpoint of that HRSA grant, what that looks like for REAL recovery. And REAL recovery, Indiana University, several local organizations that are here in Daviess, make up the Daviess Advances Recovery Access Consortium. So we meet. Once a month, every 3rd Friday of the month and we network. We talk about how we can continue to strengthen partnerships through recovery supports.

Denny Spinner

Well, Jimmy, you've been part of this activity for over 10 years now. I mean, and there was a lot of things happening. What were some of the obstacles that you were running against? And I'm looking at this, this is a common thing amongst rural communities. There's so many silos of things that are going on. What were some of the things that were really kind of tough at the beginning to kind of pull together and how did that start coming together better when the IU center and the CHIPS program came in? How did that change things for you?

Jimmy Hay

I think the struggles in the beginning were being able to have staff and have administrative assistance. I think with the community it was education and breaking down silos, building rapport with organizations so that when you go to, you asked for certain asks that they believe in what you're doing and why you're doing it and they're not trying to second guess you, I think that building rapport is probably the top of the list, especially with the, you know, our community corrections partners. They see what we're doing, where we're headed and why we're doing it and that we also have loving accountability and that they know that when something's not right that we're going to say something. We're here to advocate for people in, in recovery and to support long term recovery and I think that's an issue that most communities deal with is after the individuals are released from community corrections or probation, there's no support after that. The structure leaves and so we try to develop a structure for them to be able to be successful in recovery.

Denny Spinner

And Priscilla, from your view as you came in and saw what was happening, what did you see? How did your role start bringing that together to make it a little even, you know, to advance the ball that Jimmy was just talking about getting that support system together, not only while they're in the active recovery but beyond?

Priscilla Barnes

Ooh Jimmy, I may need a lifeline here. The way I see it is, one thing I try to do for Jimmy and the partners here that are part of DARAC (day-rack) is to show up. Oftentimes as an academic researcher, we come in with a question and we assume we understand the needs. But for me, the most important thing was to spend time in the community and to really listen. Jimmy opened his doors through REAL recovery for me to come and do several listening sessions. That was part of the HRSA grant we had to do a more specific community health needs assessment and it's one thing to look at numbers. But to really listen to the stories, because these stories are not oftentimes captured in needs assessments, it's important to show up. So that's one thing I hope that I provided to the community just taking the time to let them see me, not just be a person that just kind of comes in, is transactional with the type of relationship. But it's more relational. It's a two-way street. Try to find it more mutually beneficial. The second thing is, as I listened, I really do see communities as having these amazing strengths, gifts, abilities, and when we hear the term needs assessment, it communicates deficiencies. So we really try to spend our time, hey, you have some amazing assets here. You have already amazing people that are passionate about working in recovery communities, you have amazing structures. Maybe they need to be updated to house like a cafe, but and so in what ways can we bring students? Maybe get more academics to help with writing grants, provide more resources for board support? It's more the second thing I hope I did was bring additional tools from the university into community spaces.

Denny Spinner

Well, Jimmy, I I want to first of all, thank you for being such an advocate for this  type of work and telling your story, being willing to say this is where I was and this is where I am now. And there is a path to get there. So what are some of the things that that you would want people to understand about substance use disorders and recovery and what is misunderstood about people along that path?

Jimmy Hay

Well, I think that stigma is one of the biggest parts of that is, these people are not bad people, they've just made bad choices and they need support and some of those are just trauma responses from the things that they've gone through. For me, I believe that connection is what helps us be able to help these people, letting the community know that it's very vital for them to feel supported. When you feel supported you  grow and you begin to think believe that you can make it, I think. I think the big changes have happened in the last five years, three years with our criminal justice partners, realizing that it's not punishment anymore. It needs to be support. It needs to be rehabilitative, that we not just throw the key away, that this just keeps the cycle going. So I think for our community and for some other communities that I am involved with the knowledge that we are able to give them helps to be able to make better choices and how we interact with people who have substance use disorder and knowing that it's a disease, it's not a moral thing, that they're not bad people. It's actually a disease and it's just like a MAT programs that the community don't understand. They think that that's just replacing one drug with another and it’s like no, if you have diabetes, you have to have metformin. If you have substance use and you've struggled, you might need the medicated assisted therapy to be able to help you make it through. I have witnessed personally many times of people who have been in and out of prison multiple years and being able to have an integrated support system behind them that they telling me that they have finally have hope that they feel like they're going to succeed. So I would go back to the most important thing for me. If I could give the community any kind of input, it's connection if we support and integrate all our organizations and our support systems to be able to help these individuals feel supported so then now they gain hope in their self and have hope.

Denny Spinner

And I think one of the things I've learned about is I've learned more about this as well is that you've taken an approach that there's no such thing as a one size fits all solution for this at all. I mean, every case has its individual case you know, while what the path might be for you may not be the same path and that's what this group has been able to do is identify, you know, there are paths to recovery that are different as each case comes along. How they work through some of that, just making those resources available that that people understand that there's a way to get to where they want to be.

Priscilla Barnes

You have a lot of programs you offer through REAL Recovery. You want to share how you all?

Jimmy Hay

Well, I I would have to say it's like a top down learning kind of opportunity. I think Mental Health of America was a big part of having the training to teach. Peers, people who have lived experience in addiction to be able to have a person-centered approach that we're always thinking, you know, this worked for me, so this is the way it's got to be. You know, we need to harm reduction. We need to be able to talk to people about it. It's OK if you have a drink. Just try to make that less each day and put more time in between that and kind of weaning yourself off of that. That's one approach. Other approaches is just willpower. Faith-based approach. Some are spiritual approaches that are not faith-based and so holistic and energy with trees. And so it's being open and not closed off to different forms of help. I think that's what makes the recovery that we are experiencing these days is that we're not closed off, we're not closed minded, we're open to be able to listen and listening with empathy and kindness and caring and not judgment.

Priscilla Barnes

I wanted to add on, Jimmy said, top down, but I also see top down, bottom up, because when going back to a point I made earlier, communities are full of gifts, talents and abilities. What's been remarkable is just seeing real recovery, and other organizations really take on peer recovery coaches as part of their, workforce. And when you think of communities, there are folks that want to give back. There are folks that want to get more formalized training so they can help others. There's really strength in knowing that there's someone that can connect with you in a way that maybe others do not understand. And so even though those resources from Mental Health America, from local health departments, from Family Services. Yes, we're really fortunate to have these state organizations really wanting to connect with local communities. But I would say it's also as much as local communities wanting, desiring different ways of trying to help people. And that's been one of the richest things I've seen in Daviess, is this desire to really try to connect. But also try to elevate people’s journeys as they want to be a part of the solution.

Denny Spinner

And you mentioned peer counseling and peer work and that's part of the success that you're having here, is that as the folks come in at whatever level they're coming in, they're seeing people just like them who have been in this and can relate to the stories that Jimmy tells or the other peers that are in here and are ready to step up, and that part of the huge success is that you've got an open network, but it's also people you're familiar with. There's a familiarity that happens here that that erases some of that discomfort. Is that correct?

Priscilla Barnes

That's right, that is correct. Hey, we got another member of the team. I love it. I love it.

Denny Spinner

So I mean, as you came into this, you know, there's hope, there's aspirations for things. So what was maybe a take away, a surprising thing that you maybe learned in your work here? Priscilla, I’ll ask you that first. What was maybe an aha moment that you kind of went, wow, this is really something that's going the right direction.

Priscilla Barnes

There's so many, but I'll, I always smile when Jimmy and some of our other community partners are able to go tell their story nationally. So one of the benefits of being part of this cohort that received this Health Services Resource Administration Award is it put you in touch with other recovery communities or grantees that we participate in peer connection calls. But then once a year, we are able to go to a conference and just share with folks, you know, this is how we're trying to…it's not that we have everything figured out, but there's a platform to tell your story. And it's more of anytime I hear my friend Jimmy talk, I always shed a tear because if you hear Jimmy's story and I know I see Jimmy’s heart and I know he has a heart to help people. And then you just see him elevate the more that you give Jimmy the opportunity to give a platform to tell his story, it's like it starts local, then you can see it at the state level. I saw him just sharing his platform at Mental Health America of Indiana and then he goes on the national stage at HRSA grant. That is what makes me smile. Not so much of an aha, but it shows I’m not the messenger for this type of work. It's Jimmy. It's the people that live it and that really can see how their gifts can be an outpouring of helping others. So that's what keeps me going in this work. How can we find more spaces, local, state and national to elevate Jimmy and folks that want to do the type of work he's doing.

Denny Spinner

So Jimmy, as you approached this, you probably never thought you'd be on a speaking at a state or a national level about the work that you're doing. So tell us a little bit about that, how does that make you…how do you approach that? How does that make you feel about being able to share that story and what are what are your, I guess your goals as you take that platform and step in front? What do you hope to achieve through that opportunity?

Jimmy Hay

Well at first it was a, you know, of course, there's a little overwhelming and not being in that position before, but what helps is authenticity. Just being you and being able to allow to let the conversation happen organically. I think that makes for the best result. I think one of the most surprising things for me is just sitting in a mutual self-help group session and having somebody from another county go, I can't believe all the resources that you have here in this county to help support people in recovery. This gives me hope. And I had shared this with a with a choked up voice and a little tear in my eye when we were in Washington, DC and told HRSA that we were so grateful that they gave us this opportunity and that, you know, the dividend from that is hope and for me that was one of the things that was surprising. Secondly was I never thought that I would go to the original Recovery Cafe in Seattle and be able to be with the lady who had the original idea for this cafe. That was amazing. And she was such an inspirational speaker. So, you know, just having support is another surprising part that come from all over the place.

Priscilla Barnes

Jimmy, could you talk more about the Recovery Cafe? Because that to me, it’s not aha, but I saw you fight for that vision to make sure there was one in Daviess. So I would love for you to share more about that.

Jimmy Hay

1. Well, just joining my peer recovery coaching classes I took in Indianapolis, I heard of this place called Recovery Cafe Indy, and so I went and visited. With the board members here from the church and the board members from REAL Recovery and seeing love and, that is what for me, you know, for my background religiously, that love is what has helped heal people. And so, I knew once I seen that that that is the kind of support we needed here because it was more about wrap around services, right, and as one of our partners was lucky enough to have an IRACS to come here and so we were able to support that organization when people come out of jail or community corrections. That's for me the best part of this is seeing people come change, grow. Sometimes they fight it because they're, I've shared this in Atlanta that, some people go back to the hell they know because they don't know what it's like to experience the heaven, the good parts. They've not made it through far enough or they're not been clean long enough to go oh wow, this is good. Things are going good. Most people are like, when’s the other shoe going to drop, right? And, it don't have to so, I don't know it's been quite the process, you know? It was a little bit of a struggle getting it started and it was a huge undertaking for you know a small organization like we were. It is now growing and, I think in five days, the Recovery Cafe network will be coming here to evaluate us and we will become full members next week. So that is opportunities of more funding, more support. So, I’m just humbled to be able to be a part of something that affects change in people's life, that is significant.

Denny Spinner

What a great story. And then again,  you know, as we're planning our podcast, this is our second one. And we looked at September being recovery month and that's why we wanted to come here because this is a real example of that and as you look at this, you know where we are, what's next? What's your what's your goals for where you want to be as you continue this work and both from the university standpoint as you're working with other communities, and Jimmy what next, what's on the horizon for this as you continue to have the successes that you're having?

Priscilla Barnes

You want me to go first?

Jimmy Hay

I can.

Priscilla Barnes

OK, go ahead.

Jimmy Hay

I think for me it's sustainability for REAL Recovery. Most of our benefits or are free and they don't cost anything and we can't put no charge on that. So we we are really heavy on grant support and to be able to help facilitate these programs. I see what is needed in most communities and not just here in in what most rural communities is more transitional housing,  educating the community to knowing that, yes, these people were in active addiction and now they are not. These could be good neighbors. They see them  as, oh my gosh, they're going to come steal or tear stuff up, and that is not the truth. These people want to be better and once again connection, even the community that's around one of these transitional housing. It's huge for the neighbors to support that instead of where we're going to vote that off in the city is not going to allow any transitional housing within the city limits. It has to be out in the county. I think that is a huge support because that's the one thing that we see a lot of is homelessness and places for people to go to be able to get back on their feet. So I mean it circles all back around the connection is like when they come here we want to connect them with the resources to be able to get the support they need so they can implement the changes they want in their life. Because I think that's what keeps the struggle the circle keep going is you bang your head against the wall and you just give up and so might as well go use, because if nothing's, you know I can't get my license, I can't get a job because I'm a felon, I can't, I can't. And I want to be that I can person. Let's make this happen. Let's turn this around for you. Let's just get you the help that you need. So for me, I see transitional housing, transportation, making sure childcare, those kind of things that would stop people from succeeding in their life.

Priscilla Barnes

That's real good. The communities already know what they want, need, desire. So what I see as some exciting opportunities moving forward is how can we have these more immersive community academic partnerships occurring not only in Daviess but in other counties that we serve? I am a strong believer that you know Indiana University, yes, we're a top tier research institution, but at the same time we should be thinking about how we can give back and serve. I also think service leads to research inspired opportunities. So I do think when you co-learn and co-share with community, they're the experts of what’s in their own backyard. It's a privilege to come and work alongside of people and communities and whether it's grant funding or student placements or even trying to find ways of doing more education and training to address some of the stigma that Jimmy referred to before. I mean it takes a whole team. And so I see hopefully universities will be part of that team and we can continue to find different ways of bringing different researchers, students and staff out here in these spaces to be a trustworthy partner. I would also say, for me, I just hope that I always am the eager student that comes out and hang out with Jimmy and continue to learn about recovery. I think what I've learned is you don't have to know it all. Just listen and show up and then it naturally will show up as far as what you do. I think when we put ourselves in that vulnerable state to not always feel like we have to lead, it's amazing what community and academic partners can do together. There's times where we lead and there should be times where we follow. So I just hope that this continues and we just continue to take the community lead and trying to figure out how to address these complex problems around substance use and mental health.

Denny Spinner

Well, Jimmy, I'm going to ask you one more question. We're about time to wrap up here, but I I love the conversation so far. You know you've got some success here. You got things going in your good direction. You gave us some vision on where you want to be. But what would you tell others that were where you were six years ago? What are the things that you would say to those in other counties, we hopefully have other people listening that are maybe facing the same issue in their county. Maybe some best practices, things that you would say that would encourage or keep people working towards a goal of being able to serve the community as you are right now.

Jimmy Hay

For me, that is just faith and believing in yourself. Believing that you are in the right place at the right time to do the right thing. Networking, I mean, I see building this almost identical thing in another county and how I can approach that in a way that I learned from this situation and that is finding the one person in that community that has the most influence. And talk with them and say, oh, well, you know, can who help me with this? Know your community, know your groups. Go to NA, AA, and Celebrate Recovery. Find those people who are volunteering, doing the work, and know the people and why they do that and capture that. So that's like the spark that you know you can then add to kindling on top of. I know that the one of the best resources that I have now is the HRSA handbook on how to how to set up an organization like this so they have a handbook that hands it out and says here's what you it's a wheel and spoke. Here's you know, colleges and health centers and city government, you know, just all the different resources that are available out there to be able to tap into them. And then the other part is just authenticity, right? And you know, being who you are and showing people who you are and not. I don't. I'm trying to find the best term here, you know, just being true to you and not trying to be something that you're not.

Denny Spinner

Great words of advice and thank you so much again, Priscilla and Jimmy for being here with us today. We hope that your success continues, and as there's we will come back and tell some more stories about the successes that you've had and keep the work going because we're proud of what you've done and we look forward to continuing to work with you through the university and through the Center for Rural Engagement. So thanks again for your time and for our great conversation. We thank our listeners for being with us on Our Indiana: Stories from Rural Hoosiers, and we'll see you. Next time.

Jimmy Hay

Thank you.

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