[INTRO INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC]
Denny Spinner:
This is Denny Spinner from the Indiana University Center for Rural Engagement. Welcome to Our Indiana: Stories from Our Rural Hoosiers, recorded today from the Spencer Pride commUnity center in Spencer, Indiana. We are joined by Jacob Balash, commUnity center director; Judi Epp, the treasurer and finance director; and Elisabeth Solchik, the vice president and development director for Spencer Pride. Judi, Elisabeth, Jacob, thank you for being here, and welcome to the program.
Jacob Balash:
Thank you very much for having us.
Elisabeth Solchik:
Definitely.
Denny Spinner:
We are so excited to be here. The relationship between IU CRE and Spencer goes way back. There's all kinds of connections between us and Spencer. The IU Rural Conference, you've been a participant in that. The Rural Placemaking Studio just most recently had some events here. The solar eclipse.
Jacob Balash:
Yes.
Denny Spinner:
We had a great solar eclipse program here in Spencer and a documentary about Spencer Pride. So a lot of things happening here. We're so glad to be here. So, tell us about Spencer Pride. How did it begin, and what was the mission? How did you start carrying that out?
Judi Epp:
Well, in the beginning, it was just a few of us who were looking for like-minded people in our community because in a rural area, that can be hard to find for us. So we started small, and there were a few of us. We started with a picnic, and now we've grown to an annual event that last year had 7,000 attendees. So we're very pleased and excited with our progress. And our mission is to improve the quality of life for LGBT people in the rural area.
And so how we go about that pretty much is to educate, inform, and become a part of the greater community. So we are on the Main Street board. We volunteer at the Tivoli Theatre as a group. We belong to the Chamber of Commerce. Everything we do, all of our programming, is always free unless it's specified as a fundraiser. And we did that from the beginning because we know our audience and our community, and we don't want cost to be a barrier for participating.
So all of our events are open to straight people, gay people, everybody. We're open to the community at large. And we do a lot of—we have specific programs, but we also do one-off things, like later this month—or Saturday, actually—we're having a dementia training program for caregivers of dementia patients. So we do a lot of that kind of thing too.
Denny Spinner:
So you mentioned that, in a rural setting, this is a little different than what others might experience in another situation. This is about rural Indiana. We're having rural listeners. So what would you tell other rural communities about Spencer Pride and how this happened?
Judi Epp:
Well, one of the big things is we never protest, we never boycott. That doesn't work in this kind of community. We welcome people to come to us. We're open, and we welcome people to come to us and become a part of the community. It's a lot harder to hate and be mean to people that you know, so that would be our advice to other rural areas. Don't try to force your way in. Be there and offer things that other people want to join.
Jacob Balash:
And be visible. I think it's so important to be visible. Because I think you feel like you're an island in the middle of the woods. And you think you're all alone when actually you're not. There's a large community out there, and whenever you're that beacon, you can stand up and be like, “Hey, this is who I am,” and just represent yourself well. And then you draw other people.
Elisabeth Solchik:
Yeah, I think it's all about connection.
Jacob Balash:
Yes.
Elisabeth Solchik:
It's like, again, they’re our neighbors. They're our friends, our family and our school, etcetera. And so it's important that we're establishing those connections and we're maintaining them as the best we can. So we're always opening our doors to everybody.
Jacob Balash:
Correct.
Denny Spinner:
Wonderful. You mentioned the Spencer Pride festival, which is upcoming. It's the largest gathering of its type in Indiana. Wow! Did you ever have the vision that that would be what it is? And what would you tell visitors coming for the first time to Spencer Pride to expect?
Jacob Balash:
I think it's a wonderful pride festival for everyone to come to. And it is a great first pride because, since we're a rural pride, we've had to create our own niche on what a pride festival is, and so that's what we have done.
And then we are still very, very proud. We show all of our aspects of our community. We have drag queens and drag queen story time and all the standard stuff that you would see. But then we also have a pet parade sometimes, and then people dress up. And it's just a really, really down-home kind of thing, and very friendly.
Elisabeth Solchik:
Yeah, I was going to say it’s very family-friendly.
Jacob Balash:
Totally.
Elisabeth Solchik:
I think that's always our focus—knowing that we're in a smaller community. It's not going to compare to, like, Indianapolis or Fort Wayne or those after-hours kind of things. But even our just general activities—we've got carnival games, we've got a sensory zone. We're trying to make it more accessible this year in terms of people moving through the festival. And we actually have interpreters this year for ASL so we could have more of our community members engaging during our drag shows.
Denny Spinner:
Wow. You mentioned the number of celebrations that you've had. One that we talked about—and Jacob, you and I talked about it when we met about the solar eclipse, which was a really one-time event.
Jacob Balash:
In our lifetime, at least.
[LAUGHTER]
Denny Spinner:
So you got engaged in that, which was wonderful. And one of the stories that you kind of shared was that it really helps more of your community understand where you were, and you were part of a community that wanted to celebrate everything about Spencer.
Jacob Balash:
Oh yeah, totally. And, well, we were at the Central for Rural Engagement’s conference, and then that's when this eclipse was really brought to our attention. And we knew it was coming, but we didn't really think about, like, “We should do something.” We were just thinking someone else would be doing something.
Anyway, so then we were able to, with your help and support, we were able to make the program and start reaching out to the other people in our community. And so we were part of a group that started working it, and we got funding, and so we decided to make it our—not a pride festival, but a celebration of our community, and then make it as welcoming as possible for everyone.
So then we took the lessons learned from our festival, and then we created this. And so it was really, really a good time. You guys had interpretive dance here at the commUnity center about a week or so before, which was amazing.
Elisabeth Solchik:
It was so beautiful.
Jacob Balash:
And that brought people together, and it was wonderful. And then we did Science Stops here in town, and we did a shuttle. And so we had a model about the eclipse and what you would expect to see. We had a drag show at the Tivoli Theatre, which was wonderful. So it was a really, really good time, and people from all over came, which was a wonderful experience.
And we worked with other organizations within our community, which is always a good thing. And that's what we always try to do. But this eclipse part really brought them out of the woodwork even more, which I thought was really good. And again, we fall back to, “It's hard to hate someone you know.” So we were making ourselves available to work with everyone we could, and so it was really great.
Denny Spinner:
Does that open up some doors to work with community members that you maybe didn't work with before—
Jacob Balash:
Yes.
Denny Spinner:
—that saw you and said, “Wait a minute, we have the same goals here. We have community interests”?
Jacob Balash:
Yeah. Take those walls down.
Denny Spinner:
Right.
Jacob Balash:
Yeah. And so, you know, we worked together. And then we also brainstormed things. And then we had the solutions, many times, that we all needed to get the project done. So it was nice.
Elisabeth Solchik:
Well, and we even brought it outside of our own community in who we were interacting with. We did the LightSound broadcast for Harvard University and enabled individuals that had limited sight to participate in the eclipse through the audio sound, so it would change from a high pitch to a low pitch as the light was going through.
And so we were, I think, one of seven or eight organizations that helped put that on. So we broadened our reach outside of Indiana too. So it was kind of neat to see that spotlight on a small rural town and how we engage that way too.
Denny Spinner:
Yeah, when I reflect on the eclipse personally, it was a shared community experience, but also very personal experience. So what surprised you out of that day? What was what was the moment you went [GASPS] or just kind of got you?
Elisabeth Solchik:
I was going to say that when we were at totality, that the birds kind of stopped—it was that, again, that twilight darkness, and all the animals around just kind of calmed down. It was very quiet and just very calming and relaxing. It was beautiful.
Jacob Balash:
It's really hard to describe though, until you actually do it and be there. So, I mean, there's going to be another one in Europe. So I recommend people fly out next time.
[LAUGHTER]
Denny Spinner:
Well, we mentioned, of course, the connection with the Rural Placemaking Studio. You were one of our partners in that. We just completed a great program. Tell us about what happened through that. What are your plans for what happened out of the placemaking studio, and how do you look to advance those projects here locally?
Jacob Balash:
Well, we first are very thrilled that you guys partnered with us, and it is very, very nice, and we are glad to be that partner to you all as well. And the students are always good to work with.
Elisabeth Solchik:
Yep.
Jacob Balash:
And we were thrilled. We want to put a billboard on our roof facing the highway, which gets all this, you know, traffic. It's just a perfect opportunity. And so that was one of the projects. And then the next project would be below that. We have the back of our building—again, faces the highway. So we wanted to do a mural. So they really helped us get ideas, and then what we’ll need to do to move that project forward. So we appreciate all the help.
Elisabeth Solchik:
Yeah, it was great seeing their concepts and having those conversations. And again, I didn't realize the detail for the billboard and that construction, so the thoroughness that the students did was really appreciated because it gave me budgeting items to be able to go for fundraising, so I know now where some of the grants are going to be for next year.
And we also secured our muralist for 2025. We're hoping we'll have it done for the next festival. But taking that initial concept that they provided us, working with Coda, and being able to complete that—we're really excited about what the back of our building is going to look like next year.
Jacob Balash:
So stay tuned. It’s going to be exciting.
Elisabeth Solchik:
Yeah.
Denny Spinner:
And part of the Rural Placemaking Studio, part of the goal is experiential learning for students.
Elisabeth Solchik:
Yes.
Denny Spinner:
What did you learn from the students? What do you think the students might have learned from you as they came to be part of your community?
Elisabeth Solchik:
I was thinking of one in particular, where—I don't think he knew of Spencer, Indiana. Like, he knew South Central, Indiana, rural towns. But when he came, he was just very surprised that we had as many programming options as we did for our community and how engaged we were. And he mentioned, I think, as we were leaving from the rooftop tour, just how blown away he was about the resources that were available here, because he didn't expect that in a small town. So it was really kind of rewarding to change his perspective of rural communities.
Jacob Balash:
Which is wonderful, and I do love that. And they were great to work with, and we dialogued back and forth on what we were thinking. And so, yeah, that was a good experience.
Denny Spinner:
We talk about, from those who might not know rural Indiana, coming from the Bloomington campus, what you talked about—this rural competency, I guess, of understanding that people in Spencer have a different view of things than people in Bloomington in some ways, but that's what that true experience is. You guys are living that right here. And I'm so glad that we were able to let our students and faculty understand these students that are coming to IU from your community. We have a better understanding of what their perspective is as they come in.
Jacob Balash and Elisabeth Solchik:
Yeah.
Judi Epp:
Well, and interestingly, none of us are from here. So we are all from bigger cities
Denny Spinner:
Really?
Judi Epp:
So we understand the big city concept, and we understand the rural concept because this is where two of us live now. And so we've got all of those perceptions and how we want things to be. We don't want the big city here. We left that for a reason. [CHUCKLES]
Denny Spinner:
Right.
Judi Epp:
But we also don't want the isolationist viewpoint or attitudes. So we're working to bring it all together in a welcoming, open, friendly place.
Elisabeth Solchik:
And I think that's what's so exciting about Spencer in general is like, again, there's 2,500 people in the town, and then we bring in 7,000-plus for a day. And everybody that's coming together—they're celebrating. They're having fun. It's really interesting to see those mixed viewpoints and everybody enjoying themselves and what they're going to take back to their hometowns too. So we've had a lot of inspiration for other small rural prides in Indiana where they're like, “Okay, I want to do this.” Or, again, even just suburbs in Indianapolis are like, “We can do this too.”
Jacob Balash:
Yes.
Elisabeth Solchik:
So it's really inspiring to see what's going on across Indiana because we've been able to connect with somebody and share our story.
Jacob Balash:
And we've been doing this for 17 years.
Denny Spinner:
Right.
Jacob Balash:
So when we first started, we went to every pride festival in Indiana because there were so few. And now, we cannot go to all of them because we have watched them grow, and we have done whatever we can to support other people. But it is so rewarding to see all these other little towns saying, “Hey, if Spencer can do this, why aren't we doing this?” And that's the whole point.
Denny Spinner:
Right.
Jacob Balash:
It's like, we want to spread acceptance everywhere.
Judi Epp:
Spread the love.
Denny Spinner:
There you go. And you both mentioned that you're living here by choice. So what makes you live here? What makes Spencer special for you? Why do you love your community?
Jacob Balash:
Well, I was actually born in a small town in Kansas. And then my family, when I was 12, moved to Seattle. And then when I was 17, we moved here to Indiana. And I drove through Spencer one time, and I was like, “I want to live here,” because it reminded me of my hometown in Kansas. And so I was like, “This is the place for me.”
I love the tree-lined streets, the historic homes, the square. It's just beautiful. And so when I was 20, I bought a house here in Spencer, and I was like, “I'm not leaving.” And I haven't. And so then, eventually, I got married to my husband. And then we have sold the house in town. It was a Greek revival. It was built in 1850, and we loved it, but it was small.
So now we live in the woods by choice, and we love it. And you couldn't pry us out of here. I mean, it's a wonderful community. I like the fact that you can go to Walmart, and you're going to see people you know. You have a problem, and your car breaks down or, I don't know, whatever, there's going to be someone to stop, and they're going to check on you. And I love it because I pick up trash along the side of the road every once in a while, and people stop and be like, “Is everything OK?” [LAUGHS] I'm like, yes, I'm just picking trash.
I mean, it is nice. I love that sense of community. We're all here to make the world a better place. We all like our space, too. I love living in the woods and going to bed listening to birds and the nature sounds and so forth, not traffic. [CHUCKLES] So it's a wonderful experience, and I love small-town living.
Elisabeth Solchik:
That's exactly why I'm trying to move here as well. My husband's family is here, and so they— everybody knew with their grandparents, and everybody connected, like McDonald's University. You walk into the grocery store, and you have those conversations. I grew up in large towns, and you didn't really have that. I went to large universities. You didn't really have that. You were just kind of lost in the numbers.
And so I love that connection of people knowing each other, like just talking over coffee about what you did with your kids, or you're walking your dog, and they stop and say hello. And so I really like that community space and feeling connected to other people.
Jacob Balash:
And I think our commUnity center has really helped even amplify that.
Elisabeth Solchik:
Mm-hmm.
Jacob Balash:
Because I think people have the best intentions, always—well, not always. But in their town, they have a lot of good intentions. And then, because we have a community center where like-minded people have gathered, now we even know even more people that we can all help. And so we have—occasionally one of our volunteers will have surgery or something, and it's amazing. I can coordinate doctor visits, transportation for them, food. We can get it all covered because we have that sense of community and sense of, “We're all in this together,” kind of thing. So it's wonderful.
Judi Epp:
Well, there are drawbacks. And some people hone in on the drawbacks, like if everybody knows you, everybody knows your business. But personally, I don't see that as a bad thing. I'm okay with people knowing my business. And actually, when people know our business, it's helpful to them because everybody knows us. We're public figures, if you will.
And a couple of years ago, I had breast cancer. And I'm fine. Everything's good. But I put it all out on Facebook, my whole journey. Because I knew what would happen is, if I didn't, and I disappeared for a few months, and people would say, “Did she die? What happened to her?” Or they'd be asking my other people here, and they would be trying to decide, “What should I tell them?”
So that's the other thing—people care about you. They want to know how you are. We have grief support, a spousal grief support group here, that I'm the moderator of because I am a widow. And just yesterday, somebody in the community connected me with another new widow in the town.
Elisabeth Solchik:
Well, and I heard about it through our social media channels, because the community chatter was talking about it. And I love seeing—there was four or five recommendations of, like, “Talk to Spencer Pride about this. There's somebody there to support you.”
Judi Epp:
Right.
Elisabeth Solchik:
And then we connected. And I was like, that's so awesome.
Judi Epp:
Because one of our widows came to our group and said, “I went to a group in Bloomington. They gave me homework. That's not what I'm looking for. I just want to be with people.” We don't have a therapist. We're not a therapy group. We're just a group of people, gay and straight, who have lost their spouses and want to share our experiences and look for help. So that's the kind of thing that we do here.
Denny Spinner:
Mm. Well, I'm a rural Hoosier myself. I believe that’s what rural life in Indiana is. I mean, we're the Center for Rural Engagement. And I think what we're talking about here—sometimes there's this view of rural life as being vanilla, and there's not a lot of difference. There's not a lot of nuance. And we talk about quality of place a lot. And part of that quality of place is that that difference that we can celebrate in rural communities.
So what you're doing here is really—I've worked with the Office of Rural Affairs, and now I'm with IU. And Spencer is a community that is on the rise. I mean they've taken a lot of good steps to raise themselves up and be a community that people are interested in being in. And you’ve got to be proud of the role that you're playing in that. I'm just saying that what I'm hearing here is the story that needs to be told about rural communities across our state.
Jacob Balash:
Oh, totally.
Judi Epp:
Yes.
Jacob Balash:
Yeah, and visibility, it all comes down, is very important. People that are different need to stand up and say, “Hey, we live here too.”
Judi Epp:
Absolutely.
Jacob Balash:
“We're not cookie-cutter people.” I mean, we're all different. And it's a good thing that we all live close by and can find a like-minded thing to work on, and this is our community. So, yeah.
Denny Spinner:
Great. Some of the topics you talk about are sensitive to many people. How do you approach that? How do you tell your story and talk about those issues? And you've talked about it, and it's an open and creative atmosphere rather than an antagonistic atmosphere. You're trying to be welcoming about having that conversation.
Jacob Balash:
Well, we exist. And we are here. So if someone has a problem with any part of us, well, it doesn't change the fact that I'm here, and I'm going to stay here, and I'm living here, so we need to find a common ground to work on what we can do. So then they can see where we're trying to make Spencer a better community, and it can actually help them as well.
So we work on Spencer Main Street, for instance, and we needed beautification downtown, so we worked tirelessly on that. So then people that are like, “Well, you know, the gays...well, but that does look good.”
[LAUGHTER]
And so we can start with, “Okay, now aren't those flower baskets beautiful?” And, you know, those kinds of things. So we can start small, you know what I mean? And I think some people want to live in the bubble where it’s like, “Oh, no, we don't have those people here.” No, you do. I'm here. And then I’m married to my husband, and we've been together 23 years, and we have a son. And I think it helps [them realize], “Oh, well, they’re just people.” And I'm like, “Yes, that's exactly what we are. We’re just people.”
Elisabeth Solchik:
Yes, that’s the point. Go ahead, Judi.
Judi Epp:
Well, I was just going to say, I think if you look at the programming we offer, that exacerbates—if that's the right word—that whole concept of what we are, who we are, what kind of people we are. We have a birdwatching group. There’s a tremendous variety and diversity of people in that birdwatching group. You wouldn't believe it. The grief group that I just mentioned—here are a lot of people in this town and this county that come to that grief group because they can't find that anywhere else.
Jacob Balash:
Well, and then we have a book club.
Judi Epp:
And we've got the book club, which is virtual and in-person.
Elisabeth Solchik:
Well, and I was going to talk about the health and wellness side of it.
Judi Epp:
Yes.
Elisabeth Solchik:
We have a huge concern in rural, smaller communities where we don't have that healthcare reach. And so we've taken upon it to do vaccine clinics. We help with some other care, or again, the opioid crisis and how we can help support individuals that way too. So we've filled that gap because we do care about our community members.
Jacob Balash:
Exactly.
Judi Epp:
Right. And the Gathering Place, that's one of the big things to me.
Denny Spinner:
Well, this is a beautiful space where we're recording in right now. This is a great community space.
Judi Epp:
This is the ballroom where we have dance class, which is also incredible. The people that just walk in off the street because they see there's a free dance class, it's wonderful. Big variety of people. And in fact, one of the dancers lost their partner and still come to dance because they feel welcome here.
So the Gathering Place downstairs, the table where the coffee area is and everything, that's constantly filled with people that just come in. There is a person that was in the widows group that doesn't come to that anymore, but he lives alone, so he just shows up on Wednesdays just to come and be with other people. So we offer that as well. People can come in and just have a conversation.
One day, I came in there, and there were, like, five women sitting around that table, and I couldn't help but hear what they were talking about. They all happened to have trans grandchildren. They didn't know that about each other when they started talking. So there they were holding their own support group, just organically. So a lot of that stuff.
Jacob Balash:
And my mother-in-law brings in treats all the time too, and so the glass table typically has some kind of good thing to eat there too. [CHUCKLES]
Elisabeth Solchik:
Yeah, I always like when I'm volunteering, and I just never know who's going to come through the door and sit and chat for a little bit. Or the first-time visitors shopping and seeing what they think of our center and the store and what they're wanting to see, like with artesians or whatever. Or just some of the kids coming through because they want to charge their phone, or they want to play on the internet.
Denny Spinner:
Well, I've got to go on with one other thing that's happening. And I want you guys to tell the story—the documentary that is being made. Tell us about that, how that became a part of what you're doing . The center is supporting that in some ways. But what a great opportunity that is to spread this story as well. So tell us a little about the documentary.
Jacob Balash:
So Mitch drove through Spencer a couple years ago now, and he noticed our flags out front, our gay flags out front. And he was like, “Whoa, let me stop. What's going on?” He came in and talked to my father-in-law, and they chit-chatted about Spencer Pride and our festival and all that. And he was, like, really excited about it. He's a documentarian. And so something in the back of his brain was like, “This is something.”
And so he went to New York. He talked to people there too. And there was this gentleman that was like, “Oh, you have a story about small town America, where people from different backgrounds are working together to make a community better? Then that's a documentary I'd like to see.”
So that's sort of how that first started. And then he approached us about it. And so we've been working on it, I think, what, two years? Where he's been videoing aspects of the commUnity center or the festivals, interviewing us and stuff. So yeah, it's very, very exciting. I think we have light at the end of the tunnel. I think by the end of the year he’s going to have it done, or at least close to being done. And so we're excited, and I think it's great because it's going to share the message of love, equality, and what you can do in a small town.
And then we're hoping that people can see that, a wider audience will see that, and then think to themselves, “I could do that." And that's what we really want. We want to change all the little towns, and to have the gay people and anyone that's different stand up and say, “Hey, let's make this town a better and more welcoming place for all people.” And so I'm excited.
Denny Spinner:
Well, we saw a little bit. We had a little bit of a sneak preview at the last Rural Conference, and the response from the audience was just amazing. You had to be thrilled about those who were there and saw that preview.
Jacob Balash:
Yeah.
Denny Spinner:
There was a real emotion and real, real, real feelings in the room. I was just blown away by what I've seen so far. So we're looking forward to that.
Jacob Balash:
Well, I'm glad people are interested. It's like, it's just our life.
Denny Spinner:
Right!
Jacob Balash:
So, I mean, it's sort of hard to see it on a larger screen. You're like, “You know that’s just, like—it's just us living?” But I'm glad that it seems to resonate with people and that it's inspiring people to do something. So I'm thrilled. It is weird though to see yourself on the big screen.
[LAUGHTER]
Judi Epp:
It is.
Jacob Balash:
Yeah. Like, “Oh, weird.”
Denny Spinner:
So we're we're nearing the end of our time here. Again, we have listeners from across the state in rural communities. As a word of encouragement, what would you tell listeners who say, “Hey, we've got this in our community. How do we go through this? How do we identify? How do we communicate? How do we bring together a community like this in our community?” What's maybe one or two words of advice you would give to those who want to follow this type of example to create a community like this in their own town?
Jacob Balash:
Dare to be visible. I think it's so important. And then find like-minded people.
Elisabeth Solchik:
Connect with others so then that way you can strengthen each other and bring each other up so you can move, make a movement forward to what you want to see in your community.
Judi Epp:
Be a visible part of your community, not just yourself. Be visible. Make yourself indispensable in your community. Volunteer with the other organizations. That's really important as well.
Jacob Balash:
Agreed.
Denny Spinner:
Right. And I'm looking at your shirt, and the commUnity center—the logo is great. Unity is the thing.
Jacob Balash:
Yes.
Denny Spinner:
That's the emphasis of the whole work. Everything you're doing is about unity. And I look at [your logo]. “Gather, learn, support, imagine." Those are all things that are part of our lives.
Jacob Balash:
Yes. Yeah.
Denny Spinner:
So congratulations on your work so far and the great work that's going to happen in the future.
Jacob Balash:
Thank you.
Denny Spinner:
We are so proud that we've had a small role in helping you along your way.
Elisabeth Solchik:
It's a little bit bigger than that. We've had wonderful success so far in the past couple of years with the Center for Rural Engagement. We're very thankful for the partnership.
Jacob Balash:
We're very thankful, yes.
Denny Spinner:
Well, it's a good work, and we enjoy doing it. And we love partnering with those near us that we can bring some resources. That's part of the center's goal, is to help capacity building in in rural communities where there is that gap. And I think with the work that the center has done through our faculty and through our students, that's a real example of how things can be advanced and be a better community through this engagement with what could have been a large university just down the street.
Jacob Balash:
Correct.
Denny Spinner:
Being engaged is very important, and we're glad that we have an opportunity to work with you and with the entire community on this.
Jacob Balash:
Thank you.
Denny Spinner:
Thank you all so much. Well, this has been a great discussion, Judi and Jacob and Elisabeth. Thank you so much for joining us here today. And to our listeners, thank you for listening to Our Indiana: Stories from Rural Hoosiers. And we'll see you again next time.
[OUTRO INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC]
